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sunshine_girl
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Feb 5, 2008, 5:47 PM

Post #1 of 15 (3424 views)
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DEC model Can't Post

Hello,

Does anyone know anything about these yet? Will they be based on TM22?

M.


Chris
Forum Administrator


Feb 6, 2008, 6:23 AM

Post #2 of 15 (3412 views)
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Re:DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

The answer in short is Yes - assuming you are referring to CIBSE TM22 spec. The actual modelling 3D software to be used is SBEM or Simplified Building Energy Model.

For more information on this subject and indeed anything to do with Commercial EPC's please refer to:

Commercial Energy Assessors EPC

and

SBEM Training

Hope this helps



Chris DEA


sunshine_girl
New User

Feb 6, 2008, 11:06 AM

Post #3 of 15 (3407 views)
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Re: [Chris] Re:DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Chris, I don't quite follow. Talking about DECs only, has it been published that the model used will be TM22? I can't seem to find any info. Presumably SBEM will not be used for DECs but just EPCs. Cheers, Maria


Chris
Forum Administrator


Feb 6, 2008, 6:47 PM

Post #4 of 15 (3395 views)
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DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

DSM - Dynamic Simulation Model

Quote from CLG

A Dynamic Simulation Model is a software tool that models energy inputs and outputs for different types of building over time. In certain situations, SBEM, will not be sophisticated enough to provide an accurate assessment of a building's energy efficiency. In these cases Government-approved proprietary dynamic simulation models may be used. Communities and Local Government will provide such an approval.

As yet it is not known which organisations have approached CLG for approval of software tools for this purpose. It is likely that the standard SBEM model may not be suitable for the purpose of assessing energy ratings for extremely large complex buildings typical of public buildings and institutions. The DEC Display Energy Certificate for such buildings using official approved techniques is still not known.

CIBSE TM22

This document describes a method for assessing the energy performance of an occupied building based on metered energy use, and includes a software implementation of the method. Recent UK and European initiatives mean that the benefits of performance assessment are being backed by legislation. TM22 and its software provides support for these assessment needs. While primarily directed at assessing energy performance, the procedure has a wide range of uses for building managers, design professionals, and energy management specialists conmtributing to the 'virtuous circle' of good building management and satisfied occupants.

For further information please refer to CIBSE

TM22 Publication

Currently there is no evidence that this methodology has been officialy endorsed by CLG.

Watch this space for future developments.
Chris DEA


sunshine_girl
New User

Feb 6, 2008, 8:32 PM

Post #5 of 15 (3391 views)
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Re: [Chris] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Currently there is no evidence that this methodology has been officialy endorsed by CLG. "

Thanks Chris, that's what I thought. Regards Maria


energydave
New User

Feb 7, 2008, 5:53 PM

Post #6 of 15 (3373 views)
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Re: [sunshine_girl] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi All,

Just to clarify the situation regarding DEC software. SBEM will not be used for DECs as this is the basic calculation engine for raising non-domestic EPCs. CLG are developing the DEC software using external consultants and it will be loosely based on the CIBSE TM22 methodology, which already includes some of the benchmarks for rating a building. The software is (I believe) to be called OR Calculator (OR = Operational Rating) or similar although there is very little info available yet. You can find further info and appropriate links at www.arrow-energy-solutions.co.uk if you need.

Hope this helps,

Dave


sunshine_girl
New User

Feb 10, 2008, 11:55 PM

Post #7 of 15 (3341 views)
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Re: [energydave] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Dave. Will try and find out more on "Operational Rating".


Eavesdropper
Novice

Mar 18, 2008, 10:31 AM

Post #8 of 15 (3044 views)
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Re: [sunshine_girl] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to let you know, DECs are based on an Operational Rating which means that you will need to look at the buildings actual energy usage (i.e. The public buildings bills) - These will be put into software to create Public Display Certificates - If it is something you would like to be trained to do - ECMK will be doing the training :)


Hi-D
Novice

May 14, 2008, 11:37 PM

Post #9 of 15 (2488 views)
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Re: [Eavesdropper] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

I am looking the opportunities for Commercial EPCs and DECs but there is little information to indicate whether they are worth training for. The CLG regulatory impact assessment indicates prices between £500 and £2,000 for the EPCs but is very unclear on what has to be done for that. They also forecast an average of £97 for Domestic EPCs and we all know what happened to the price of them.

Does anyone have any idea what is involved, how long it will take, and what sort of pricing structure will work?


Eavesdropper
Novice

May 15, 2008, 1:12 PM

Post #10 of 15 (2475 views)
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Re: [Hi-D] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to know the answer to this too. It's something we get asked about a lot.

A lot of commercial and DEC Energy Assessors are likely to deal a larger contracts rather than one off individual buildings so I think it will be hard to set prices per building since size and volumes will need to be taken into account.


NDEA
New User

Jul 20, 2008, 12:39 AM

Post #11 of 15 (1827 views)
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Re: [Eavesdropper] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Becomming a competent NDEA is not an easy task. At the moment prices are good but there is no set structure to prices. I have heard people talk about 85p per square metre others say £500 for a small building (i.e. corner shop, converted house etc.) as long as all plans and elevation drawings are available along with HVAC O+M manuals. If no plans are available and you have to do a full survey then your looking a lot more money. A survey of a building for commercial EPC production is not like a domestic EPC survey, you can expect a few overnight stays away from home for multiple cellular office buildings. With DEC's I have heard of people saying minimum £300 for simple 1000sqM building going upto £5000 for large complex buildings, again dependant upon what information the client can give you.
When producing commercial EPC's you need to look at everything in every room. Every room needs measuring, every window needs measuring, along with every door. Every type of wall construction needs noting and you need to be able to work out the area of every wall. Every internal wall thickness, construction type and floor to floor height need measuring. Every light needs looking at and all the heating and cooling systems, also every deadleg needs measuring.
Once this is done the building needs zoning then entering into the software (not easy). SBEM has some complicated rules which need to be followed every time.
I dont't want to put anyone off but its better you know that its nothing like domestic.
With regards to what you need to know, you will need a good knowledge of: building construction types and fabrics, ADL2A and ADL2B, HVAC systems, HVAC controls, lighting and the software you will use.
Some are saying a level 3 building £400 - £4000, level 4 upto £10000 and level 5 has been mentioned some buildings could end up around £20000

But its all down to your marketing and sales skills


graham1st
New User

Aug 27, 2008, 10:12 AM

Post #12 of 15 (1462 views)
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Re: [NDEA] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

How to find your nearest DEA and HI provider. Here is the solution with mynearestdea.co.uk. Using free map solution


John F
New User

Sep 18, 2008, 2:20 PM

Post #13 of 15 (1300 views)
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Re: [Chris] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Chris,

I am a qualified EPC Assessor (Level 3) and I am currently qualifying for DEC assessments.

Your statement that the DEC is based on TM22 is not accurate, though I appreciate the posting was made in Feb 2008 and it is now September 2008. I would like to state a few facts if I may. Many DEC candidates will be familiar with these issues but they will also assist any potential candidates in deciding whether to join us in this unholy mess!

1) The official government software for producing DECs is ORCALC (current version Pilot_release_V1_05 00). The software contains no help files and requires a methodology "The Government methodology for the production of Operational Ratings, Display Energy Certificates and Advisory Reports .doc" in order to use the software in the way that is was designed.

2) The methodology document above is not available at this time. The document is to be published by the CLG's (rather mysterious) "Policy Team" but as of yesterday nobody could give me a deadline. Please bear in mind that DECs 'go live' 1st October 2008!

3) ABBE is the body responsible for assessing the accreditaion bodies and the actual DEC assessors on the shop floor. ABBE also sets the exam which all candidates must pass (70% pass mark) in order to become a qualified DEC assessor (a successful portfolio submission is also required but that is for another day)

4) For the last 2 exam papers, ABBE has set at least 10 questions per paper on the subject of Operational Ratings. These questions cannot be answered using TM22 (this is included in the ABBE Handbook Reading List but for what purpose I have absolutely no idea) but can only be answered from the methodology document mentioned in 1 above.

5) The ABBE Handbook Reading List does not reflect the current exam questions being set. Candidate pass rates are low and accreditation bodies are now coming under pressure from the CLG - the same body responsible for the lack of documentation essential to pass the exam!

I am currently trying to speak to ABBE to resolve this matter and retrieve exam fees for the first 2 papers (a big ask I know!) My advice is not to sit the exam until a DEFINITIVE and ACCURATE list of information sources/reading material is published. You have little chance of passing the exam at the moment.


Chris
Forum Administrator


Sep 18, 2008, 4:23 PM

Post #14 of 15 (1292 views)
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Re: [John F] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello John,

Thanks for the heads up regarding the CIBSE TM22, yes it was early days then and a lot has changed. I note in your post the paradox that has occured with examination papers for DEC's it is somewhat ironic that ABBE & CLG have perhaps inadvertantly created this situation. It would appear that there is some communiation breakdown evident if your experience is anything to go by.

Good Luck with your exam - hopefully these issues will be resolved before your 3rd paper!

Regards
Chris DEA


John F
New User

Sep 18, 2008, 4:45 PM

Post #15 of 15 (1291 views)
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Re: [Chris] DEC model [In reply to] Can't Post

Chris,

Your thinking is uncanny! The problem is indeed a breakdown in communication compounded by a lack of project management at the highest level. It should not be left to candidates to sort this mess out but this is where we are at the moment. ABBE seem unwilling to talk to me, apart from the long-suffering Carol in Customer Care. I cannot reach any of the technical bods but I may have one last go at Roger Bishop (CEO) before things escalate further.

Watch this space!

 
 
 


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